Replacing a bathroom floor¶
Recently, it came to my attention the floor in my middle bathroom had become a hazard, and was rotting out.
This post, goes over replacing the floor, including what happened, and how it was fixed.
Detecting the issue¶
So, Sometime in July, my wife told me something odd was going on with the main bathroom.
After investigation, I concurred that, something indeed odd was happening.
The first sign- the toilet was literally sinking into the floor.
(Sorry- I didn't take a good "Before" picture, having to work on other pictures I had laying around).
Next- when walking near the toilet, it was pretty obvious the floor was shifting. Looking at the trim on the back-wall- the floor had noticeably sunk as well.
For reference- here is a picture of the area as of April, 2022.
This image was taken while we were remodeling the bathroom, removing the 1970's wood trim, and slightly updating everything.
For reference- the area circled in red, is the area which appears to be affected.
Next steps- Determine the scope¶
A few days later after work, I went ahead and crawled under the house, to scope out how bad the issue was.
Well- what I discovered, was quite a bit worse then I was thinking....
So- the first obvious symptom- the floor is literally rotten.
Next- you will notice the plumber who installed this toilet, sliced right through the middle of the joist. (this- is/was responsible for sagging floor issues in the hallway......)
Finally- you will notice- somebody was aware of this issue, and "fixed" it by nailing a bunch of 1x4s to the floor............
Allstate - Rejection 1.¶
So, given I had water damage, I decided to contact my insurance company, Allstate, to get a claim opened. Because, of course, "I am in good hands"
I suspected the damage was caused by a leaking toilet flange. After reviewing the photos, without sending out an inspector, or adjuster, the claim was denied.
I will save you from needing to read the entire policy, and its numerous pages of "exclusions" to coverage- but, I will draw attention to AllState - Does homeowners insurance cover water damage
Specifically- this, copied from the above website, on 2024-10-10.
Does homeowners insurance cover water damage from leaking plumbing?
Homeowners insurance may help cover damage caused by leaking plumbing if the leak is sudden and accidental, such as if a washing machine supply hose suddenly breaks or a pipe burst. However, homeowners insurance does not cover damage resulting from poor maintenance. So, if damage results after you fail to repair a leaky toilet, for example, homeowners insurance likely will not pay for repairs.
So- assuming the theory of leaking toilet flange- it is indeed, not covered.
Note- the highlighted section for later... It becomes extremely relevant.
Fixing the issue myself.¶
Given my insurance company who claims to cover burst pipes, does not cover burst pipes, I decided to go ahead and remediate this issue myself.
Removing the old floor¶
The first step was easy- remove the old floor. Simply hitting the tile with a hammer, was enough to cause the floor to completely collapse.
Yes. The tile was holding the floor up.
On a positive note, while removing the floor, I did discover the floor under the tub, was in good condition, and did not need to be removed.
This, would have escalated costs, and added another day or two of labor.
But, the other wall, was not so lucky. The rot extended well under the wall dividing the two bathrooms.
Here- is a picture showing the back-wall.
And- here is a picture of the entry way, after being mostly cleaned up.
A few hours was spent using hammers, chisels, drills, sawzalls, etc to remove the rotten wood where possible....
During this process, I also cut back the bad sections of the joist, and removed the useless 1ft section of joist attached to the exterior wall.
Here- is a picture of the majority of cleanup completed.
Obtaining Supplies¶
So- most of the replacement supplies were obtained BEFORE removing the floor... however, I did have to make quite a few additional stops to pick up unexpected items.
But, here is a short list of items-
Tile: * New Tile (1ft x 2ft large format tile) * Thinset * Grout * Grout Sealer * Tile Spacers
Subfloor: * Advantek (I researched, and found this to be highly recommended... Its essentially soaked in resin.) * Redguard (paint-on waterproofing membrane)
Framing: * 2x4s (Used in a few areas) * 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 - Used to add new framing around joists, adding stringers. etc. * 4x4 Used to support the currently unsupported joist. * concrete pier
Oops. Cut a pipe on accident¶
During the removal process, I was using a saw-zall to cut out sections of the rotten subfloor.... and I accidentally nicked a drainage pipe.
This- one was fun enough to eat up a couple of hours of time....
First- a picture of the cut pipe through the wall, after I cut it off, at the section which was nicked.
And- a couple of angles from below.
So, I did not take a picture during "fixing" this issue, or after. But- the process of fixing this, involved cutting away the nearly inch and a half base-floor to get enough pipe exposed to add a coupler.
This process, involved using a saw-zall to cut the base-floor on the sides, up to the seal-plate.... and a very long drill-bit to slowly drill away behind the pipes, to avoid causing any more unneeded damage.
Afterwards, I was able to remove this section of subfloor, and properly repair the drain-pipe using a coupler.
(Sorry- images were not a huge priority during this process!)
I did go ahead and cut the main drainage line to properly install new couplers anyways, as getting the pipe into the coupler without doing this, was proving to be overly difficult.
Framing / Foundation¶
Part of installing the new floor, meant it needed to be properly secured, on all sides. You don't want a soft spot, this could cause the tile to crack.
As well, since the center joist was completely cut in two by a careless plumber years back... a portion of the house was not properly supported causing the floor to sag.
Most of the original joists were 2x6. For many of these areas, I used 2x8, and even 2x10 lumber, to provide additional strength. (Overkill... Not needed)
The vast majority of lumbar used here, is also pressure-treated, to provide additional water/rot resistance. (If the wood is green-tinted, is likely pressure-treated.)
The first step, was to properly support the old joist. A 2x8 was used here, with joist-hangers attaching to the other two joists. As well- if you look closely- there is a concrete pier supporting both the joist, and the new stringer from the bottom. You can also see stacks of 2x6 pressure-treated boards, used to create stringers, and additional support for the new floor, and the tub.
Next- we wanted to ENSURE the toilet would be properly supported. To accomplish this, a Pair of pressure-treated 2x10s were used to create joists. Joist-hangers were used to connect to the stringer. A few additional pieces of wood were used to ensure the seal-plate was properly supported, and to ensure everything is nice and tight.
Note- Notches in the bottom of the new joists to compensate for the pipes.... These were needed because the new material, is.. well. bigger. Ample room was cut-out to allow for pipe-movement, without knocking against the boards.
Here- is this section closer to completion.
Here is a good shot of the additional support added for the original, severed joist. As a note- this joist had to be lifted around 1 inch, to become properly level again. (This is why my hallway floor has a massive sag in it!!!!)
The 4x4 has a 2" notch, which supports the old joist, and supports the new stringer as well.
In the following picture, the new foundation and framing has been nearly completed. You can see stringers on either side, designed to ensure the new subfloor is properly supported.
Do note- the new floor does not fit under the tub. Additional support was added under the tub as well, to ensure it is properly supported.
And, after a while, the framing/foundation work was completed.... The subfloor was cut to dimensions, and a hole was added for the potty.
Not shown- all of the debris, wood, saw-dust, etc was raked up from under the house. I don't need to give terminates any extra reasons to move in. My trash-disposal company was quite happy with me.... /s.
Relocating the HVAC Duct¶
During this process, We also decided to slightly relocate the vent from the tiled bathroom area, to the other side of the separating wall. This, would prevent water from being splashed into it, and would also mean I wouldn't need to slice up the pretty tile to install an ugly vent.
Now, I don't have a good image showing where the duct used to be- but, if you look at some of the pictures during the rot-removal process- you will see the duct near the tub, by the corner of the separating wall.
Due to the timing, most of the hardware stores was closed when this was done. Since, my new vent had a 4" inlet, I needed to adapt the existing 5" line.
First- I used some tin-snips to make several small cuts on the radius.
Next, using a pair of linesman pliers, I made bends on each of the cut segments.
Finally- using a piece of the old 4" aluminum drive-shaft from "Project - Racetruck", I clamped the 5" pipe down, using a standard hose clamp.
Afterwards, I was able to fit a 4" 90 degree bend on.
From here, I was able to go ahead and connect up the new duct. Insulation was wrapped around the new duct, and re-secured around the old duct to somewhat stop heat/cold loss.
Again- apologize for the lack of good images- Taking pictures was not a priority during this process!
Also- it appeared the duct was not supported well enough. Since- I didn't have the correct hanger material, I bent a piece of scrap steel I had laying around, and securely attached it to the joist.
Installing Subfloor¶
Again- I didn't take nearly enough pictures to fully document this-
But, after the subfloor was cut, a healthy bead of construction adhesive was placed on top of every board it touched. This- prevents noises, and squeaking while walking on the subfloor.
#8, 2" screws were used to fasten the sub-floor to the joists, and stringers. This, also helps secure the subfloor. Between the screws, and adhesive, there will be no noise, no squeaking, etc...
Toilet Flange¶
After the sub-floor was installed, a hole for the toilet line was cut with a hole saw, and the toilet flange was installed.
You may notice the silicon which was very liberally applied. I don't EVER want to worry about this particular floor rotting. Silicon was used everyone under, and around this flange. Even if it manages to leak- The silicon will prevent anything from rotting out.
Note
Only use 100% silicon caulk here! Don't use acrylic caulk!
Foam¶
Since, there were quite a few gaps around the wall, from where the new subfloor, didn't exactly match up with the old, spray-foam was used to provide a barrier.
In- this image, you can see the foam applied, and a few of the tools used. Acrylic caulk was used in a few areas of the wall to assist with sealing.
The main purpose of this foam, is to create a barrier which both prevents things from seeping out (thinset, membrane, etc....), and to prevent things like insects and slugs from crawling in.
Yes- there is a specific reason slugs were mentioned.....
Before you ask why there is a machete in the above image.... Just know, it does a fantastic job of trimming foam, removing rotted wood, etc....
Waterproofing Membrane¶
While, Adventek is supposed to be quite water resistent, I decided to go ahead and apply preventative measures as well. Especially- since my kids love splashing water all over the floors.
For this, I decided to use Redguard.
In short, you paint a few coats on the floor, and it provides copious amounts of water resistance.
Once it turns completely red, with no hints of pink- it is ready. This will generally take a few hours per coat. I applied 3 coats.
Cutting Tile¶
To cut the tile, I picked up a tile-cutter from harbor freight. It performed its role without issue.
You may also need a Diamond Blade for more elegant cuts. Especially, if your 2-foot wide tiles don't fit into the tile-cutter like me.
Warning
When cutting tile, with a diamond blade- make sure to spray lots of water to keep the blade cool.
I used a spray-bottle, to constantly stream water into the path being cut.
Failure to keep the blade cool, will result in the blade failing prematurely.
After, measure, cut, measure, cut, measure cut.... for a while, I had all of the tile layed out on the floor.
And.... Af this point, I was ready to put in thinset to permanently mount these files.
So.... I went to mix up a batch of thinset in a bucket, and came back to....
Disaster - Flooded Floor¶
Turns out, there is a plumbing leak. Whenever you turn on the spigot in the front- it floods the wall in-between the studs.
After filling up my bucket with water, The new floor had accumulated a half inch of water.
So.... I went ahead and opened up the wall to determine what was happening.
Other then... obviously the handy work of the old plumber who cut the entire joist in half.... (the torched drain-line...)
Not- a lot to see here, right?
Well- I saw with my own eyes, water pouring from this section of the wall. So, I turned the water mains off, and cut the copper line, and removed the spigot.
Low and behold, we have a burst pipe. This, likely occurred during one of the recent freezes.
Replacing Spigot¶
So, I went to the hardware store, again, to pick up a new spigot.
And, the next step, was to get everything sweated back on.
No, I am NOT using shark bite fittings, or any of that other crap. Sweating a pipe is easy. You see my blog, Its covered in computers, programming, and technology. I am obviously not a plumber.
And, I sweated the pipe, as seen below.
Step 1- Clean up the old pipe.
Use emory cloth, or just some high-grit sandpaper. It should be nice and shiny.
Note, in the below image, you can see pieces of tile used to prevent from torching the sheetrock, or anything else behind this fitting.
There are products specifically for this purpose, however, I had pieces of tile already on-hand. Tile, is quite resistent to heat. And, it was only exposed for a short duration.
Not shown- Apply flux to the interior of your new fitting, and on the pipe being sweated.
Warning
Don't be like the plumber who originally did the plumbing. Block the heat from torching the rest of the house, or PVC behind the area you are working on.
It takes 5 seconds to put a heat-barrier to avoid charring whatever is behind the copper you are working on.
Apply Heat via propane/map gas torch. The solder should melt, WITHOUT direct flame. If its not melting, your pipe is not hot enough.
Danger
Do NOT sweat pipe the same way you solder electronics.
The copper needs to be hot enough to melt the solder. If its not- then you will not properly sweat the connection.
The solder should melt upon contact with the pipe, and it will be "sucked" into the gaps.
Once done, you should have a nice, and pretty fitting, with solder properly sucked into all of the gaps... Like this.
Don't be like the guy on the right. That is wrong. That is not professional.
I'm not a plumber, and I have not sweated a pipe in over a decade. Compare my work with the previous work.
Notice- the nice CLEAN job, without gobs of solder dripping all over the place? Do that.
After this point, I opened the outdoor spigot, and turned the water mains back on.
With- someone on the inside watching for any leaks, I closed the spigot. No leaks were detected, so, this is finished for now.
Easter Egg¶
While looking inside of the wall- we did manage to find an easter egg.
A bit of research hints this can was from 1950-1970.
BUT.... if you paid attention in earlier images, especially the section where I accidentally cut the drain-pipe... You may have noticed an extra unpopulated hole.
Well- this blocks the hole on the top side. So, instead of an easter egg, appears whoever was working on this was busy drinking beer. This- explains the horrible sweat jobs, and torched PVC....
But- that was 50+ years ago...
Laying Tile¶
With, the plumbing issue remediated, we went back to finishing up the tile.
So- not pictured, BEFORE fixing the plumbing issue, we did get around half of the tile layed.
But- a huge problem arose.... Since, a few hours were wasted with drying up the floor, and locating the plumbing issue- The thinset (rapid-set, thinset) had already begun setting up.
This was noticed about a row or two in. It was extremely obvious, when the thinset was "set", in mere minutes.
We did attempt to set the rest of the floor, but, later that night, I "tested" the tiles using a hammer. (gentle taps). Based on the noise the tile makes, you can make an extremely good approximation if its properly "set".
Turns out, the last two rows were not set. So- an hour was spent scraping, and hammering out the thinset. My pneumatic air-hammer worked REALLY good for removing the thinset... and redguard.
So- I did have to wait a few more hours while new coats of redguard went down.
During this waiting time, we melted down a few aluminum, and copper ingots in the driveway with my forge.
Passing Time - Melting Copper¶
The first copper ingot- Apparently I did not do a good job removing all of the flux before pouring.
But, with a tiny bit of grinding and buffing, it cleaned up extremely nicely.
I also recently acquired a new carbide saw blade for my 14" DeWalt Chop Saw. Something like this: Amazon - Evolution Carbide Blade
(Image- was taking a bit later when I was doing the wood floor.... but, still provided to give a good idea of the chop saw.)
After, watching it effortlessly slice through wood, aluminum, and basically everything else like a hot-knife through butter, I decided to try it one of my aluminum ingots.
Turns out- slices through those like butter too.
In a few weeks, when I get my garage cleaned up, I'm going to toss all of my ingots on the lathe, and machine down the dimensions to be... uniform, and flat. The flat look is very nice looking.
Back to the floor¶
After playing around with melting metal for a bit, the coats of redguard were once again applied. it was time to finish the tile.
So, we did.
This time, the process went MUCH smoother, as we also made the thinset, slightly thinner. This gave PLENTY of time for laying laying the files, and adjusting the height of each one.
Final Steps... Grout and Drywall.¶
So, the only remaining items left- grout the tiles, and add the drywall.
This process, was honestly extremely easy, and quite relaxing.
Mix grout to pancake-batter-like consistency, and use a float to push it into the cracks.
Wait a hour or so, come back with a wet grouting sponge, and wipe up any excess.
The next day, come back and give it a nice shine.
Do note- the progress of replacing, and texturing the drywall in the background too.
Mostly Finished¶
After a coat of paint, this project is nearly done.
Will need to add another coat of paint, and then cut/paint trim to replace the trim. However- project is nearly completed.
A threshold will be added too, along with grout sealer after a week or so.
Bonus - Closet Floor Replacement¶
While someone was working on texturing the drywall, I did decide to go ahead and redo the floor in one of the closets.
So, A few weeks ago, I pulled the carpet out of the closet, and sanded down the floors to remove the construction residue/etc.
I WAS planning on applying wood stain, with a coat of polyurethane, however, I came into possession of quite a few boxes of wood floor. So- I decided to use those.
To, give an example- here is one of the other closets I pulled the carpet from, stripped, sanded, stained, and poly-d.
Nothing, fancy. But, I do like the wood texture.
But, since... I had the boxes of wood flooring on hand.....
Yup. This looks much better. Really glad I did this.
But- one thing that was bothering me- the wood did not perfectly line up.
Now- this is basically a non-issue, as the threshold would cover this.... But, I decided to pull out the wood chisel for a bit.
Much better.
Anyways, will grab threshold in the future, which will completely cover the transition between wood, and "fake wood".
Allstate - Rejection Number 2.¶
So, remember the part I quoted from Allstate's website above, talking about how burst pipes are covered? If not- here, I'll paste it here again.
Does homeowners insurance cover water damage from leaking plumbing?
Homeowners insurance may help cover damage caused by leaking plumbing if the leak is sudden and accidental, such as if a washing machine supply hose suddenly breaks or a pipe burst. However, homeowners insurance does not cover damage resulting from poor maintenance. So, if damage results after you fail to repair a leaky toilet, for example, homeowners insurance likely will not pay for repairs.
Well, I decided to submit new evidence to my claim, since, obviously a pipe had burst.
I was greeted by an extremely pleasant individual.
So, in response, I sent back this response.
And, finally, they decided to take another look.
Rejected, Again.¶
So, the next day (today), I received a phone call from the adjuster.
And, once again, the claim is denied.
Because, my burst pipe is being considered "leaks and/or seepage".
Despite, it literally flooded the house, when the outdoor spigot is turned on.
Final words?¶
I will strongly urge you to review your Allstate policy, and determine if they are the correct insurance company for you.
In my case, I really don't feel as though, "I am in good hands".
As quoted above directly from their website, "Sudden and accidental breaks or pipe bursts" are covered. But- suppose if the leak is inside of the wall, and goes undetected, then apparently it is considered a seeping pipe.
Apparently, my pipe which suddenly burst during cold weather, is NOT covered.
To also confirm, Allstate NEVER sent out an inspector, or adjuster to physically look at anything.
I, am also no longer with Allstate.